I finished one of my finals today and decided to listen to another sermon and post some comments on it. The link to the audio version of the sermon is in the title to this post. I made a mistake in my last article saying that this sermon series was based on the four seasons. ..the series is actually titled Spring Cleaning. I think this may have been changed after their initial introduction to the series or something...but it really doesn't matter. Anyway, this sermon was given on May 11 and it is called, A Load to Bear.
First, I have to say that Valley Real Life's sermons are only 30 minutes long, but there is usually a beaucoup of information to dicuss. So, I will not be able to comment on every little detail, but feel free to make comments in the comment section about any other details that stand out to you. I'm trying to keep these articles as short and sweet as possible so they don't get boring :)
The pastor starts off this sermon stating that he is going to show how god is a great mother to us. Now, by us I'm not sure if this pastor is speaking of his specific congregation, Christians in general, all people, or all of god's creation. I'll try to consider each of theses scenarios in my comments, but it could get really long. So, I'll try to clarify which "us" I'm speaking of.
He says there are three different expressions of a good mom that reflect Jesus. They are not only for mom's though...every Christian should reflect these things to represent Christ. OK...so maybe he's just talking to Christians in this sermon. I'll try to comment based on that perspective.
The first expression is that of compassion. Dictionary.com defines compassion as:
–noun
1. a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.
This pastor believes that the reason people followed Jesus was because he showed them compassion. He says, "There isn't a person in this room today who has been healed miraculously by God who doesn't, I hope, every single day remember what an incredible thing God has done for them in their life." This brings up a couple of questions for me.
First, is there any such person who has been healed "miraculously" today? If there were, I think we'd all know about it. My goodness, we know about the woman who can't forget anything, I'd think we'd hear about a miraculous healing. I have my suspicions that a doctor or some other healthcare professional may have been involved in any so-called miraculous healings. And, if that's the case, those people should be saying thank you to the doctor not to god. (Miracle: a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency Oxford American Dictionary)
Second, how did that person get the illness they needed to be healed from in the first place? According to this church, everything happens according to God's will. So, I have to assume that god wanted that person to be sick. Can one really be compassionate about something that they caused? For example, if an abusive parent breaks their child's arm, would one consider it to be compassionate to bring the child to the hospital? I wouldn't.
So now I'm sure the pastor would say something along the lines of...well, the person was made sick for a reason and there was a reason to make them well also. After all, in most Christian's eyes, there is a reason for everything. Then, I'd have to ask how powerful this god really is if the only way he can accomplish something is by hurting another person. And, I still question whether one could really call it compassion when the god heals a sickness he caused.
The second expression he speaks of is protection, but he quickly adds that the protection god is talking about may not be what we would consider protection. OK, well I would consider protection to be preventing harm...the pastor reads some verses from the Bible before he reveals what his definition of protection is.
The first Bible verse he presents to show this protection is Matthew 23:37. He presented this verse as Jesus being so loving to tell Jerusalem that he wanted to protect them like a hen protects her chicks. However, this verse has a very different meaning when you read it in the context of the rest of the chapter. The theme of this chapter is that the people who criticize Jesus and do not believe he is the son of god are fools and he threatens them with troubles (woe unto you) verses 13-29. Then Jesus says that the Jewish people are responsible for the deaths of the prophets and if only they would have believed he was the son of god...then he could have protected them. It takes on quite a different meaning when you read it in context. These are not the words of a god showing his people love and protection....these are the words of a tyrant who wants to squelch the opposition.
The next passage from the Bible is John 17. Basically, this is a prayer from Jesus to God and he asks God to protect his followers from evil when he is gone. So, there we have god's definition of protection....not physical protection, but spiritual protection. So, there are no guarantees for this life, but Jesus assures his followers that they will be protected in the next life. Personally, I'd rather have protection in the life that I know is real. But, this sermon was addressed to a Christian audience who most likely believe that this is just the first life. I think I'd want some kind of proof, though, if I was a Christian....I guess that's why I'm not.
The last expression is...Sacrifice. The pastor says Jesus willingly gave up his life to save yours. Did he really? In Luke 22:41-42 Jesus asks god to take away this cup and that HIS will be done. So, it was not Jesus' will to die, it was God's. A god should be able to forgive without blood sacrifice. Sacrifice is an archaic idea and I find it irreconcilable with the idea of a loving god.
I agree with the pastor that people should show each other compassion , protection and to some extent sacrifice. (Personally, I wouldn't use the word sacrifice. I think people give up small things like time, money, etc in order to help others. But I wouldn't condone people giving up their happiness or well-being. There needs to be a balance.) These are just aspects of living in a society. Anyone can possess these qualities whether they are a Christian or not. It seems like god made things confusing by allowing this if the purpose of these qualities is to be a reflection of him. I think they more accurately reflect how humans have evolved and are community oriented.
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16 comments:
Hi there... My name is Matt King and I am the guy who preached the sermon "A load to bear". I just wanted to say that I thought your blog was very well done and I appreciate your perspectives very much. My brother is an athiest for a number of reasons but he is not nearly as intelligent in his stance as you appear to be. Not that you need my permission but I welcome your feedback and perspectives as it actually helps me be more relevant to people. Thanks and even though you don't believe in God...God bless you. Matt
Hello Pastor King :) Welcome to my blog....I'm not sure what you would prefer me to call you. So, if you do not wish me to call you "Pastor King" please let me know what you would prefer.
I appreciate your compliments on my post and am glad that you are open to feedback. I'm not sure how many posts of mine you have read, but I will give you a very quick, condensed background here about why I have posted critiques on your sermons.
Some people I know have attended your church. I began listening to your sermons because I was curious what they were learning. I found that while I was listening to the sermons many things did not add up to me.
Personally, I feel that anyone who speaks to large groups of people has an ethical responsibility to be as truthful as possible. I feel that it is also the listener's responsibility to double check what the speaker says...anyone can make mistakes.
So, I decided that since I listen to your sermons anyway, I might as well write down my thoughts as I listen. Thus, the blog posts.
Feel free to make comments in the comments section anytime. I realize that I may not get the whole perspective of the sermon because I am listening online instead of actually being present in the congregation. I also believe I have heard you say that sermon notes are provided to the congregation and those may clarify some of the questions or critiques I have made.
Thank you again for leaving a comment.
In reason,
Humanist Mama
Hi again... You can just call me Matt. Even though I'm a pastor I have never really liked the title.
I agree with you that anyone who speaks publically should be held responsible for their words. In fact that is something the bible specifically talks about. That being said...I have made many mistakes and said many things that should never have come out of my mouth so I appreciate you keeping me aware of that.
As for my decibal level all I can tell you is that I get very passionate about certain things in life and talking about how cool I think God is is one of them. Many people have confronted me about my loudness but after they get to know me they realize that it is one of the least of my flaws. :)
I also saw in one of your other blogs that you don't like it when someone says "God bless" to you so I was wondering if it was ok to say "bless yourself" to a humanist? I'm not sure how to handle the whole blessing thing with you and maybe should just say something else altogether. At any rate I hope that we can keep a dialogue going and that you would see that I'm truly interested in what you have to say, and if you'd let me, know more of your story. My email is mking@valleyreallife.org if you want to blast me on something or say something outside of your blog. Matt
Matt,
First, I have to say, thank you for having a civil discussion with me. Many (thankfully not all) of the Christians I have met or know have had a difficult time with that.
In your last comment you said,"I also saw in one of your other blogs that you don't like it when someone says "God bless" to you"
I believe you are referring to a recent post I made about a thank you note from my daughter's teacher. That is the only one I can recall at the moment that said anything about "God bless".
In that situation, there were a couple of reasons I did not like it. 1) It was from a public school teacher to a student and 2) it was accompanied by a Bible verse giving the entire note a very religious tone.
That does not mean that I am offended anytime someone says that to me. It really depends on each situation. I have acquaintances who do not know that I am an atheist and say "God bless you" when I sneeze. In those cases, I just say thank you. On the other hand, I have had religious people tell me "God bless you" with a malicious, condescending tone because they know I am an atheist. In that case I do take offense because of the way they use it.
Try to imagine if a school teacher wrote a thank you note to your child (I think you said you had kids???) and it had a verse from the Koran on the front and it closed with "Bless Allah".
The problem here was simply the situation that it was said in. I know my daughter's had good intentions. But as a school teacher, she should really be aware of the fact that her students will not all believe the same things she does. It's best to be neutral in that situation.
so I was wondering if it was ok to say "bless yourself" to a humanist?
I'm not sure it would make much sense. To me, a blessing is a religious rite. When one says "God Bless you", I believe they are asking god to look favorably upon you and protect you. If one were to say "bless yourself", it would almost sound like that person were implying that a humanist worships himself/herself or something...which is not the case.
If you are concerned about offending someone who is an atheist or has a different religion than yours, I would just close letters with a generic statement. There are so many to choose from. Sincerely, best wishes, best regards, warm wishes, warm regards, kind regards....
Hi again... I was wondering what I should call you. I was going to say "Hi mama" but that sounded a bit weird to me but I could get used to it if that's what you want. Anyway, I'm curious as to how you feel about me in a sense using your opinions and advice to help advance Christianity when you are so opposed to it? You say in your profile that you were once a fundamental Christian but turned Humanist. My understanding of humanism in its basic beliefs is that there is nothing supernatural or any being of divine nature. That human reasoning is supreme and that knowledge of right or wrong is dependant on the understanding gained through individual discovery, rather than a revelation from a transcendental book or being. In other words, the bible or any other book of religion is not a viable source for discovering truth. Does that sound about right? If not give me your corrections. Back to my point…I mentioned before that my brother is an atheist. I have solicited his opinion on many things before and he seems to be ok with me doing so even though he knows that I’m trying to reach as many people as possible with a message I believe is truth; a message that you must be familiar with. However, you appear to be very active in proclaiming a very different message that strips God (whoever He may be) of any divinity and ultimately insert human opinion in that place. That sounds to me like you’re placing humans in the place of God…making humans responsible only to other humans and ultimately in themselves gods. Maybe that’s not the way you feel so let me know what your thoughts are.
One more thought…please know that I respect your freedom to believe anything you want to believe and will fight for you. I hope you will do the same for me. Matt
Matt,
I started writing a response to your last comment and found that it was getting quite long. So, I'm going to make a new post on the blog that will respond to the last comment. I'm working on it, but I'm also trying to do other stuff too. So, I'm hoping to have a new post up this evening.
The response to your last comment can be found here :)
Hello HumanistMama-
I have been able to read a few of your blog entries and wanted to take a minute to share with you some of my own personal history and experiences. Although I have read multiple entries, I will only respond to one at a time; Dad, Husband and work limits my time.
The first entry I would like to touch on is your analysis of a pastor’s sermon, first I would like to commend you on your knowledge of the Bible and English articulation. Although I am a Christian you seem to know passages and quotes better than I.
You had made the statement:
“First, is there any such person who has been healed "miraculously" today? If there were, I think we'd all know about it. … I'd think we'd hear about a miraculous healing.”
Unfortunately we live in a world where not only the works of God don’t make the daily news, but truly NO good acts make the daily news. We live in a world where an OJ Simpson murder Investigation is headline news for months at a time, kidnapped girls are talked about weekly, the sexual lifestyles of Paris Hilton, Pamela Anderson and Michael Vick abusing dogs supersedes any good deeds or positive acts performed by any people or God as the topic was posed. Why our news reporting is so focused on negative stories I don’t know, with that said…
The following is not a story of, ‘I heard from a guy, who has a neighbor who worked with a guy, that has a friend that…… bla bla bla.’ It is a true story of my son, with no exaggerations or embellishments.
Our son was born with infantile glaucoma, at 4months 4 days old he was diagnosed and the next day he went in for emergency eye surgery. His pressures were at 48 and 46. Over the next eight months he had a total of eight eye surgeries, five in the left and three in the right. After multiple surgeries from not only pediatric ophthalmologists’ and adult glaucoma specialists, taking our son out of state to seek, 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc opinions, each doctor told us to get, ‘prepared for the worst.’ His pressures were not going down, with surgeries, taking up to 6 different glaucoma meds at one time, five eye dropper and one oral. Pressures would always initially drop a little but then increase, hence the multiple surgeries and excess of meds.
Keep in mind since the day of diagnosis and every tear wept, lack of sleep, and heart wrenching day for those extended months we had been praying nonstop, truly like I have never prayed before in my life. As time went on, pressures started to drop. As the pressures dropped we were able to drop a medication, pressures continued to drop and so did more meds. Over time medications went down to three, down to two, down to one. At one med, our doctor felt so comfortable with his pressures she wanted to try a week with zero meds. After a week with no meds we had another, EUA, (Exam Under Anesthesia), his pressures remained the same level. The doctor was very excited about this and wanted to try three weeks with no meds. At the three week mark we had another EUA, where the doctor came out smiling, our sons pressures after three weeks, (really four) had DROPPED, his pressures were normal range for his age. She told us, and I will quote, “… I see no signs of glaucoma in this kid, if I didn’t know his history, I’d tell you he doesn’t have glaucoma and never has.” I can give the doctors name off site, if you want to contact me via email.
I can tell you that my son has not had ANY glaucoma meds in over three years and has no signs of glaucoma since. The doctors at the Glaucoma Research Foundation, (San Francisco), have poured over his paperwork in disbelief. The ONLY thing I can attribute to his health turn around is a miracle. “(Miracle: a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency Oxford American Dictionary)”
Doctors, multiple doctors all specializing in not only eyes, but glaucoma specifically, both in children and adults, could not turn his pressures around, but today he is absolutely fine, and I thank God daily for the blessing.
“Second, how did that person get the illness they needed to be healed from in the first place? According to this church, everything happens according to God's will.”
I would like to touch on this later…
(Hmm just realized I wrote a book, sorry)
Hi JSnell,
Thank you for your comment. I just got home from work and we are trying to get ready to go camping for the Fourth of July. So, I'll do my best to address everything in a short amount of time :)
Unfortunately we live in a world where not only the works of God don’t make the daily news, but truly NO good acts make the daily news.
I know it seems that way, but I have seen good stories on the news. Plus, the news is not the only source we have for information. Yes, I agree that sometimes it takes more time to hear about the positive stories, but we eventually do hear about them.
The following is not a story of, ‘I heard from a guy, who has a neighbor who worked with a guy, that has a friend that…… bla bla bla.’ It is a true story of my son, with no exaggerations or embellishments.
That is fine, but I will still question the story as I read it just as I would any story I heard...in no way am I trying to belittle your experience. But, when you claim that something is a miracle, I'm going to have some questions.
Also, it should be pointed out that the way a parent experiences something is very different than the way a medical professional perceives the same event. That is not saying that one is right & one is wrong. They're just different.
At this point, you went on to tell your story of your experience with your son's glaucoma. I won't quote word for word because the comment would get too long. But, what I will do is write the questions I would ask if anyone else were telling me this story. I am not expecting you to answer these questions or to even know all of these answers. These are just touching on the first things I would want to know as I examined your claim of a miracle.
Here we go...in no particular order:
I wonder what the normal treatment is for this type of glaucoma?
I wonder what the expected outcomes are for children? Does the age of onset and the time frame when treatment begins have anything to do with the expected recovery?
What was the time frame between the final surgery and your son's recovery?
How often do children who have had these surgeries require glaucoma meds as well...and how long do they usually take them?
Are children who are diagnosed with this considered to have glaucoma for the rest of their lives? Would it be unusual for a child to show no signs of glaucoma after undergoing multiple surgeries and medication treatments?
Basically, I would need to do some research on infantile glaucoma and see what the experts in the field have to say.
(I briefly looked up some information on infantile glaucoma at the website of The Children's Glaucoma Foundation and The Glaucoma Research Foundation. I found some of the answers to my questions, but not all of the answers.)
Once I got all of the answers to my questions, I'd be ready to assess the story and the information that the medical community gave me. I'd have to decide if your story fell outside of the realm of possibilities. Is it possible that the recovery was because of medical interventions? And of course more questions like...
Does it truly defy natural laws?
Is there any evidence that a supernatural power was involved?
If so, what is the evidence and have professionals in that field examined it?
What are their perceptions?
In no way am I claiming that you did not experience a miracle. You say you did. But, that's not enough for other people to accept the claim.
With or without a miracle,I am so happy for you and your family that your son is doing well. I can't even imagine going through that . I hope that he will stay glaucoma free and not need any more surgeries in the future.
Thanks again for sharing your story,
Humanist Mama
(Sorry deleted original post)
Dear Humanist Mama-
I am sorry for an improper assumption on my behalf. I thought that you being a nurse were familiar with Glaucoma, but after speaking to my wife who is also a (Dialysis) nurse, she explained not all nurses know everything about all areas of healthcare, she admitted a huge hole in her knowledge of oncology and other precise areas of healthcare, so with that said, let me tell you what I have learned, (which is way more than I ever wanted to know) about glaucoma…
Congenital (Infantile) Glaucoma affects 1:10,000 children with boys being more likely to receive it then girls. Although it can be a genetic inheritance, we found that our son, (after having genetic counseling), found that he had a mutated cell.
As stated on Mayoclinic.com, “Glaucoma can't be cured, and damage caused by the disease can't be reversed. But with treatment, glaucoma can be controlled. Eyedrops, oral medications and surgical procedures can prevent or slow further damage. Having glaucoma means you'll need to continue treatment for the rest of your life. Because the disease can progress or change without your being aware of it, your treatment may need to be adjusted over time. Regular checkups and adherence to a treatment plan may seem burdensome, but they're essential to prevent vision loss. July 18, 2006
I wonder what the normal treatment is for this type of glaucoma?
When a child/infant is born with glaucoma, they usually have 2 surgeries per eye, called Goniotomies, the child is then on eye dropper or oral meds for the rest of his/her life and those meds can be given in each eye once or twice a day depending on severity of eye pressures.
I wonder what the expected outcomes are for children?
Answered above…
Does the age of onset and the time frame when treatment begins have anything to do with the expected recovery?
Time of onset does not matter regarding recovery or surgery schedule. However time frame of initial treatment I am guessing could be a factor of the long term effects of glaucoma. Prolonging a surgery and letting pressures get too high can cause more damage to the corneal surface and/or optic nerve.
What was the time frame between the final surgery and your son's recovery?
Time frame was gradual, as we were expecting our sons eyes to get worse since the total of eight eye surgeries had not helped his pressures go down, we were expecting honestly that our son would go blind. As stated in my original post ALL doctors warned us to be ‘prepared for the worst’, our sons pressures were not going down via surgery nor meds. By multiple professional sources, his future seemed bleak.
How often do children who have had these surgeries require glaucoma meds as well...and how long do they usually take them?
Every child, for the rest of their lives.
Are children who are diagnosed with this considered to have glaucoma for the rest of their lives?
Forever…
Would it be unusual for a child to show no signs of glaucoma after undergoing multiple surgeries and medication treatments?
It is VERY unusual, hence our doctors being so amazed at his turn around.
Is it possible that the recovery was because of medical interventions?
Not according to ANYTHING I have read, if it were I don’t think the doctors at the Glaucoma Research Foundation would have such an interest in our sons case.
Does it truly defy natural laws?
Honestly, I will let you research Glaucoma and let you come to your own conclusion. The GCF cannot explain why the basic recipe of 2 surgeries per eye and meds did not work. Nor can they explain, why, when he was such a severe case the extensive eight eye surgeries and six different meds at one time did not allow pressures to go down and slated to probably go blind.
Is there any evidence that a supernatural power was involved?
Other than the end result of our son not having any signs of glaucoma, no need for meds, no need for surgeries, no optic nerve damage, no corneal surface damage, no, no signs. There was no great light, our son was not elevated and spun around in a room, and there was no voice from God. Just the simple, yet not so simple fact, our son, who was born with Infantile Glaucoma, had eight eye surgeries, was on a ton of meds, saw multiple professional doctors, not only in Spokane but went to other states to seek other professional opinions, all met with the same response from all doctors encountered, ‘Eight eye surgeries? You have tried all these meds? Pressures not going down? Better get prepared for the worst.’
If so, what is the evidence and have professionals in that field examined it?
What are their perceptions?
Surprised, amazed, dumbfounded? I am not trying to put words in their mouths but until you see how they react to our sons turn around, see the puzzled look on their faces, watch them flip page after page and back to a previous page of his medical records, confused and trying to make sense of everything, to that, I truly cannot put words.
I wanted to reiterate in closing, our son was not a ‘typical case’ from the beginning. He was not the run of the mill of the infantile glaucoma patients, the basic care plan did not take place here. Pediatric specialists had all but given up, an adult glaucoma specialist in town had all but given up. Our son had been slated to be one of ‘those statistics’, where medical/medicinal procedures were not going to relieve his pressures. So as of today, not only are his pressures absolutely normal for a child his age, he has not had any meds or surgeries in over three years, close to four.
I am just a simple guy with a simple life, awesome kids, wife and a job I sometimes like. However, we are truly Blessed and moreso than we deserve. Would my story have any more weight with you, if I was a Doctor? Or one that you are going to consult and fact check with? After all, we are all humans, with much room to err. I am sure you can find a professional that can somehow, through major conflict and arguement may come up with an excuse as to our sons healing. Would his/her single explanation outweigh all the other professionals, MayoClinics, and others opinions? Just depends on how far you dig and whom you speak with. The FACT remains, simply put, our son has seen MULTIPLE doctors, on all levels of pediatric/adult/opthamalogy/glaucoma/surgical, levels and no one can explain his Miraculous turn around. I will close with your posted quote again:
(Miracle: a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency (Oxford American Dictionary)
JSnell
PS Now I have a question for you. Why are you so Strongly against Christianity? You used to be a fund Christian, but now you seem no where near that, and quite strongly against it.
I am a Dad, Husband, own my own company, Christian, Mustang Car Collector, guitar player, (no particular order), but the only recommended or shared links on your blog are also humanistic, atheistic, agnostic whatever. What happened? If you want to start a new blog to share how you went to such an extreme I would be interested in hearing. I am enjoying our conversation and am happy to answer more on the above stated. (Book two complete) Sorry :)
JSnell,
First, thank you for realizing that one person could not possibly be an expert on every disease or condition :) I have general knowledge of glaucoma, but from what I've read infantile glaucoma has some important differences.
I have done some minimal research on infantile glaucoma since your first post and found some answers that differed from the ones you gave. But, I'm not sure if you are trying to convince me to believe you experienced a miracle or just trying to convince me that a miracle could happen...
I'm not going to argue every point you've made simply because I am not trying to convince you that you did not experience a miracle. You may have, but you'll need to come up with a great deal of evidence to back up that claim...if that is what you are trying to convince me of. As Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
Would my story have any more weight with you, if I was a Doctor? Or one that you are going to consult and fact check with? After all, we are all humans, with much room to err.
Try to see this from my perspective. It would not be logical for me to believe a story that someone wrote on the internet simply because the writer of the story says it is true. Of course, I would need to do some fact checking. And no, it wouldn't matter if you said you were a doctor. The fact is I do not know you.
Also, the claim you are making requires more evidence than a story. I agree we all are humans and we all experience things differently. That is why I would need to talk to some doctors who specialize in infantile glaucoma to get their perspectives.
If they were absolutely sure that there was no medical cause for your son's recovery, I would ask for evidence of the supernatural healing that you claim.
You see, throughout history people have given credit to deities for things they did not understand. But, as our knowledge has progressed we have found out that these occurrences were actually natural and had nothing to do with a deity. Maybe the people at the Glaucoma Research Foundation are looking at your son's records to get a clue on how to help other kids in his situation. They may not have given you an explanation right now, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
PS Now I have a question for you. Why are you so Strongly against Christianity? You used to be a fund Christian, but now you seem no where near that, and quite strongly against it.
As I said in this post, I am not "strongly against Christianity. I oppose some of the teachings of some denominations of Christianity. But, I can oppose the ideas without being opposed to people's right to be a Christian. I can also oppose those ideas without being opposed to Christians.
So really, what I oppose are the destructive ideas that are present in some of the teachings and the way members of certain Christian groups push their ideas on everyone else. And that goes for all destructive beliefs and ideas...I don't just limit it to Christianity.
...but the only recommended or shared links on your blog are also humanistic, atheistic, agnostic whatever. What happened?
My blog is not a blog about me as a person. It is a blog about my experiences as a humanist parent...a small part of who I am. Thus, it has links to humanist sites etc. I started my blog as a way to vent because I am surrounded by conservative Christians.
If you want to start a new blog to share how you went to such an extreme I would be interested in hearing.
I may write a post about my journey to humanism if that's what you mean. Yes, my views are different than yours but that doesn't mean I'm extreme....I just have different views than you do.
Hey HM, here we are once again...
I have done some minimal research on infantile glaucoma since your first post and found some answers that differed from the ones you gave.
Oh? Hmm, well I’d like to hear those differing answers? My knowledge is based off what doctors have told us, web site research, my wife being a BSN nurse, reading GRFoundation mailers etc. I admit I am not perfect so if there is something I may have misstated please let me know, I am definitely trying to present a correct case to you.
…but you'll need to come up with a great deal of evidence to back up that claim...
Not really sure what more I can do or say to provide more evidence? I am not surrendering my sons medical records? The doctors are here in town, I have offered their names offsite. But even then due to confidentiality, if you asked them directly, “Do you think John Doe lived through a miracle?” They would not provide that info to you… ??
It would not be logical for me to believe a story that someone wrote on the internet simply because the writer of the story says it is true.
I am willing to offer my info offsite, for direct contact, not sure how to do that though on here. I am local to you, it’s not just an ‘internet story’.
That is why I would need to talk to some doctors who specialize in infantile glaucoma to get their perspectives.
Yes please do so.
If they were absolutely sure that there was no medical cause for your son's recovery, I would ask for evidence of the supernatural healing that you claim.
Red Sea parting? Vision of God witnessed by 30? What exactly would be adequate proof to satiate your curiosity? Unfortunately none of that happened, so we might be left in mire there.
Maybe the people at the Glaucoma Research Foundation are looking at your son's records to get a clue on how to help other kids in his situation. They may not have given you an explanation right now, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
I agree they are looking at his case not only for other peoples benefit, but also the simple fact, they “… have never seen anything like this before.” A quote from a doctor who has looked at all of our sons paperwork and been completely puzzled.
So really, what I oppose are the destructive ideas that are present in some of the teachings and the way members of certain Christian groups push their ideas on everyone else. And that goes for all destructive beliefs and ideas...I don't just limit it to Christianity.
Well I don’t think anything we are talking about is destructive, and I don’t think I am pushing any ideas on you at all. You had made a post about not hearing about Miracles. I am trying to tell you of one, but you are steadfastly against it. I have made quite a case of my sons history, and after answering many of your direct questions I am now reduced to ‘just a story on the internet.’ Frankly it seems regardless of Miracle presented and answers provided, you are desperate to discount me.
It is a blog about my experiences as a humanist parent...a small part of who I am. … I started my blog as a way to vent because I am surrounded by conservative Christians.
It does sound like you are involved with some aggressive people in your life. I read about your sisters wedding and was going to make a post there, and still may, but you are correct. Touting the husband/groom whatever to be your sisters, lifesaver, did seem to be a little lopsided, and you are right, maybe you or your sister should have stood up for her(self) and said some positive things about her.
I was not rock bottom, on drugs, broke, drinking or any of the things most people deal with when they are at ‘low points’ of their life, but I am truly a better man today because of my wife. She is a great person, and has maybe ‘corralled’ (spelling?) me and calmed me down. I hope she would say the same about me. I think couples bring out the best in people, both the groom to your sister as well as she to the groom. Let me meet him, I’ll knock him down a few levels :). Aren’t Christians supposed to have some humility?
I may write a post about my journey to humanism if that's what you mean.
Yes, again, how did you work away from the Fundamentalist Christian life, (assuming raised in it?) To being known as HumanistMama? See I don’t know you as anything else, but by all your links, posts etc, you are very strong in your stance. I think Pastor Matt said his brother was an Athiest? I know many people that have their own beliefs, just like mine as a Christian but I don’t have blogs, or web pages proclaiming my beliefs, maybe as a Christian I should? But as you stated many people are turned off by that, so I speak to them when opportunities arise or questions are asked.
But publicly, those that know me would tell you I am a family man, Christian, sports freak, car collector, guitar dork, and dare I say it? Antique collector? I think my testosterone level just went down by three.
Anyway, I am not sure what more I can say on this whole topic. My ‘story’ is not made up, no lies, no exaggerations, I am willing to lay my hand on the Bible and swear truth, but I guess that would be the ultimate irony here huh? :)
JSnell
Hey JSnell...I just realized that I forgot to write a comment here leading to my response to your last comment. It was so long I made it a new post.
Sorry I have not responded to your last post. I've been very busy with family, work, vacations, etc.
I read your last post and the links provided, the links you provided actually confirm alot of what I have been saying. You are right people with Glaucoma go blind from the IOP. The IOP is a symptom of the Glaucoma. The suregeries can immediately relieve the IOP and hopefully save the optic nerve. Meds can also relieve some of the IOP.
Anyway, long story short, I will summarize my original retort to your statement about miracles happening today.
My son was slotted to probably go blind and most definitely have some severe eye problems the rest of his life, Dr. Jeffrey Snow, Dr. Jane Durcan, Dr. Christina Nye, are some of the local Drs to have worked with our son. When the 'doomed future' was presented by us, by multiple Drs, we went to the GRFoundation in SanFran. When they confirmed the original Drs bleak future diagnosis, we then went to Dr. David Wheeler at the Casey Eye Inst in Portland, Or. Upon a third and very disheartening diagnosis we returned home.
After multiple Goniotomies(Sp?) and one Trabeculectomy(Sp?), an adult form of surgery, with no dramatic and long term IOP drop. We continued to pray and administer meds to our son. Continued appointments and gradually over time the meds dropped and dropped and dropped.
According to multiple Drs, definitions of Glaucoma, and websites, when someone has Glaucoma, they have surgery (if severe enough) and then are on meds for the rest of their lives to help maintain the IOP. They can also have Corneal Scarring, color blindness, tunnel vision, and Near/Far Sightedness, (I cant recall which). Our son has none of those, and most telling has not had an eye dropper or Oral Med for over 3yrs.
As you know:
SCIENCE IS BASED ON FACT.
You can go ahead and say that this is a scientific fluke of a random 100% cure. But the science doesnt support that. Hence the gentleman from the GRFoundation coming to our house and following our sons case so closely. The multpile Drs we have seen, not being able to make sense of all that has happened.
As you also know:
RELIGION IS BASED ON FAITH.
If science can't explain our sons recovery, but our Faith that Jesus has healed our son, what is truly the more reasonable explanation? Regardless of your bias or mine, following simple Science/Religion foundation, the answer would most definately lean towards a Miracle. I will link for you one last time, your own quote: (Miracle: a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency (Oxford American Dictionary)
If our sons story does not follow your own quoted definition of a Miracle from the dictionary. I truly cannot imagine a more precise and exact story.
I am closing out this conversation as I am certain based on your hardcore beliefs in atheism, no matter what I say, how well documented or how well presented you will find an arguement to discount.
I wish the best to you and your family and pray that you are healed through what I am sensing is some terrible hurt. I am not sure what or why, but I feel there may be more to Humanist Mama than she is letting on, possibly standing against religion as a barricade of safety against, family? Former friend? Traumatic Event?
You are my sister, and I love you. The Lord loves you (and I)much more than I can even imagine. Lord Bless you and your family and take care.
JSnell
(This comment has been edited by the administrator of the blog. Nothing was removed that affected the content of this comment.)
JSnell,
I'm not sure you've read a word I've written. Do you not understand that the claim you are making is an extraordinary one and cannot be "proven" by a simple story? I understand that other people may be swayed by this, but it is not going to sway someone who doesn't go to your church or believe exactly what you believe.
Have you EVER considered that there could be an explanation other than a miracle as to why your son's pressures went down? That would be the most reasonable thing to do. Yet, I have the impression that you immediately jumped to miracle instead of looking at other possibilities. Maybe you don't wish to consider other possibilities, and that's fine. But, you can't expect other people not to consider other possibilities. After all, a miracle is quite unreasonable when compared to the possibility of a medical intervention being the cause of decreased pressures.
Also, I'm concerned by your statement "SCIENCE IS BASED ON FACT". By that do you mean that we have facts and then we use science to fit them? Maybe that's not what you meant. The statement just makes it sound like we have facts first and then they lead to science. A better way to say it might be that: Facts are based in science. That is, science is a tool we use to discover facts.
I'll say again that the most likely reason that the GRFoundation is interested in your son's case is so that they can help other people. Unlike religious people, scientists will say "I don't know" when they don't know and look for the answers. It is not logical to fill in the blank with god did it. We've been there and done that and found out we were wrong about many things.
I also don't agree with your assertion that "RELIGION IS BASED ON FAITH." I would say religion is based on books, dogma and rituals. Faith is something that some religions see as a virtue, but not all. Faith is when someone believes something without requiring evidence for that belief. Sometimes this faith is so strong that people need to rearrange the facts to fit their beliefs that are based on faith. This may explain why some religious people have a misunderstanding of how science works...we don't start with the conclusion and fit everything else to it in science.
I am closing out this conversation as I am certain based on your hardcore beliefs in atheism, no matter what I say, how well documented or how well presented you will find an arguement to discount.
I think that you might have a misunderstanding of what atheism is.
Theism= belief in the existence of a god or gods.
A= lack of, without.
Thus, atheism= lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods. How can I have a hardcore belief in the lack of belief? I think maybe your hardcore belief in Christianity has blinded you to the possibility of any other explanation.
I believe in evidence...maybe that's what you meant. If that's the case, then I agree, it is going to be difficult to prove that a miracle occurred when there is a lack of evidence. And again, you're making an extraordinary claim here...you're going to need some extraordinary evidence.
I'm not sure if this will make you feel any better, but I wouldn't believe it if Hesham came and told me the same story but said that Allah healed his son. I would have written the exact same things to him as I've written to you. Would you have believed a story from someone else that Allah had healed their son? Or might you be more likely to believe it only if it is your god who did the healing?
I wish the best to you and your family and pray that you are healed through what I am sensing is some terrible hurt. I am not sure what or why, but I feel there may be more to Humanist Mama than she is letting on, possibly standing against religion as a barricade of safety against, family? Former friend? Traumatic Event?
I'm perfectly fine and certainly did not become an atheist because of a "personal hurt." I came to atheism through knowledge, reason, evidence...or should I say lack of evidence.
If praying makes you feel better, go right ahead. But, I think your time would be better spent if you actually went out and helped someone who needs it. How about you donate time, money, goods, or services to a charity every time you feel like praying for me. Maybe the world would be a better place if more people did that.
In peace and reason,
Humanist Mama
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