Trying to prove a Miracle can be tough

After reading one of my posts, Comments on a Valley Real Life sermon A Load to Bear, JSnell made a comment and wanted to show me that miracles do happen. So, I've been corresponding with him through the comment section, but my last response was just WAY too long for a comment. So, again, I've created a new post.

If someone other than JSnell is reading this, you may need to go back to the original post to understand this one :) But, maybe you'll be able to get the gist just by reading my response to his comment:

Oh? Hmm, well I’d like to hear those differing answers? My is based off what doctors have told us, web site research, my wife being a BSN nurse, reading GRFoundation mailers etc. I admit I am not perfect so if there is something I may have misstated please let me know, I am definitely trying to present a correct case to you.

As I said in my comment yesterday, I am not out to prove to you that you did not experience a miracle. That was why I did not feel the need to point out the problems I had with your answers. But, if you would like me to, I will.

Having glaucoma means you'll need to continue treatment for the rest of your life. Because the disease can progress or change without your being aware of it, your treatment may need to be adjusted over time. Regular checkups and adherence to a treatment plan may seem burdensome, but they're essential to prevent vision loss. July 18, 2006

The mayo clinic reference is not a specific reference to infantile glaucoma. I found that the intraocular pressures of infantile glaucoma may be resolved with surgery. The Children’s Glaucoma Foundation says this:
“Surgery is hence indicated to effect permanent reduction of the intraocular pressure.”

When a child/infant is born with glaucoma, they usually have 2 surgeries per eye, called Goniotomies, the child is then on eye dropper or oral meds for the rest of his/her life and those meds can be given in each eye once or twice a day depending on severity of eye pressures.

“Children who have been diagnosed with primary congenital glaucoma must continue to receive follow-up care throughout their lives. Surgery can control IOP and help prevent vision loss; however, it does not cure children of the glaucoma. Children are still at risk for further glaucoma development and vision loss during their lifetime.” eMedicine Health on Primary Congenital Glaucoma.

The way I read that is that surgery can control IOP. Do you plan on your son continuing visits with the ophthalmologist? Or do you consider the glaucoma to be cured? If you consider it to be cured, why?

I wonder what the expected outcomes are for children?
Answered above…

I’ll clarify, what are the statistics regarding the outcomes of children. What percentage respond to each type of surgery? How many children relapse?
Here is some information I found:
Goniotomy surgery was performed for 335 eyes and glaucoma control was achieved with single goniotomy in 71% (239) of eyes and by one or more goniotomies in 94% (313) of eyes.69 Relapse following successful goniotomy is unusual68 and occurred more frequently when the glaucoma was first recognized at birth (36%), compared to results in children recognized before 6 months of age (16%).Journal of Pediatric Ophthalmology: Primary Congential Glaucoma.

Time of onset does not matter regarding recovery or surgery schedule. However time frame of initial treatment I am guessing could be a factor of the long term effects of glaucoma. Prolonging a surgery and letting pressures get too high can cause more damage to the corneal surface and/or optic nerve.

I agree with most of that. Age of diagnosis does however effect the outcomes of the goniotomy according to this Journal of Pediatric Ophthalmology paper, “Primary Congenital Glaucoma”

What was the time frame between the final surgery and your son's recovery?
Time frame was gradual, as we were expecting our sons eyes to get worse since the total of eight eye surgeries had not helped his pressures go down, we were expecting honestly that our son would go blind. As stated in my original post ALL doctors warned us to be ‘prepared for the worst’, our sons pressures were not going down via surgery nor meds. By multiple professional sources, his future seemed bleak.

So, about how long after the final surgery did your son’s pressures go down? I understand that the doctors told you his future was bleak….you need to be prepared for the worst. It does not mean that everything is hopeless.
Were all 8 surgeries goniotomies?

Would it be unusual for a child to show no signs of glaucoma after undergoing multiple surgeries and medication treatments?
It is VERY unusual, hence our doctors being so amazed at his turn around.

How unusual? Is your son’s the only case or are there others? If there are others, what has been the attributed cause for their recoveries?

Is it possible that the recovery was because of medical interventions?
Not according to ANYTHING I have read, if it were I don’t think the doctors at the Glaucoma Research Foundation would have such an interest in our sons case.

Actually, I can see why they would be interested in his case. If his outcome seemed so bleak, they want to know exactly what was done so they might be able to help other kids in the same situation.

Does it truly defy natural laws?
Honestly, I will let you research Glaucoma and let you come to your own conclusion. The GCF cannot explain why the basic recipe of 2 surgeries per eye and meds did not work. Nor can they explain, why, when he was such a severe case the extensive eight eye surgeries and six different meds at one time did not allow pressures to go down and slated to probably go blind.

“Goniosurgery, filtration surgery, and implant surgery are the three options for the management of congenital glaucoma. ..Children with more severe defects of the filtration channels often do not respond to goniosurgery, and filtration procedures may be required to bypass the malfunctioning system, creating a new egress passage for the aqueous humor. The results of this type of surgery may be disappointing due to the failure of the new passage to remain patent…. Repeat surgery in an unoperated area may be necessary to achieve an adequate lowering of the eye pressure. In case of failure of classic filtration surgery, implants (Molteno, Ahmed, others) may be used to drain the aqueous fluid from the eye by way of a silicone tube to an episcleral reservoir.” Children’s Glaucoma Foundation.
It sounds like there are a lot of kids who don’t respond to the basic recipe.

I also want to point out again that if something has not been explained, it does not automatically mean that god did it. As I said yesterday, history has shown us that sometimes people attribute things to deities that really end up being natural events. So, if there is no explanation, it means we need to do further research.

Not really sure what more I can do or say to provide more evidence? I am not surrendering my sons medical records? The doctors are here in town, I have offered their names offsite. But even then due to confidentiality, if you asked them directly, “Do you think John Doe lived through a miracle?” They would not provide that info to you… ??

You seem upset that I am not taking your word for it. I have not asked you for the doctor’s name because I know that it would be useless. Please do not get upset when I ask you to provide evidence. You made the claim and you cannot expect someone else to believe it without providing evidence. In this case, I’m not sure what more you could do. I guess I would try to get some researchers to look at his case….get in touch with the Glaucoma Foundation and see if they think it was a miracle or if they have any hypotheses on his recovery.

I am willing to offer my info offsite, for direct contact, not sure how to do that though on here. I am local to you, it’s not just an ‘internet story’.

It doesn’t matter if you’re local to me. The point is that this is a story from a stranger that I have no prior knowledge of before presenting me with the story.

Red Sea parting? Vision of God witnessed by 30? What exactly would be adequate proof to satiate your curiosity? Unfortunately none of that happened, so we might be left in mire there.

Sorry, it’s kind of like someone saying they were abducted by aliens but we never see any proof. You wouldn’t believe that another god healed your son without some proof. And nobody should expect you to.

I agree they are looking at his case not only for other peoples benefit, but also the simple fact, they “… have never seen anything like this before.” A quote from a doctor who has looked at all of our sons paperwork and been completely puzzled.

That’s great. Maybe they’ll find something to help someone else out.

Well I don’t think anything we are talking about is destructive, and I don’t think I am pushing any ideas on you at all.

Please do not take me out of context. I did not say that you were talking about something destructive or pushing ideas on me. You asked me why I am so strongly against Christianity and that was just a part of my answer to your question.

You had made a post about not hearing about Miracles. I am trying to tell you of one, but you are steadfastly against it.

I have never said that you did not experience a miracle. I will tell anybody who wants to make an extraordinary claim that they need to provide evidence. You have not provided the evidence please do not try to blame me for that. Would you like me to go back and edit the post to say “confirmed miracles”?

I have made quite a case of my sons history, and after answering many of your direct questions I am now reduced to ‘just a story on the internet.’

I thanked you for answering my questions. I explained that some of them differed from the information I found. The fact is that this is just a story on the internet.

Frankly it seems regardless of Miracle presented and answers provided, you are desperate to discount me.

You have in no way presented me with evidence of a miracle. I am being honest in searching for answers and you do not like the fact that I won’t believe something because you say so.

… but I am truly a better man today because of my wife. She is a great person, and has maybe ‘corralled’ (spelling?) me and calmed me down. I hope she would say the same about me.

**UPDATE** I just discovered that some of my smiley faces were turned into "J" when I posted this. It looked really weird, so I'm going back and changing the J's back to the :) that I had intended. Let me know if you notice any that I missed**

That’s great…make sure you tell her that too :)

I think couples bring out the best in people, both the groom to your sister as well as she to the groom. Let me meet him, I’ll knock him down a few levels :).

My sister’s husband is a very nice guy. We get along great…I just didn’t care for their wedding. He has never spoken down to me because we have different beliefs. He has been very respectful actually. Of course, there are some things that bother me about him, but that’s the way it is with anyone. So, I’m sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I’ll have to clarify that in a new post.

Yes, again, how did you work away from the Fundamentalist Christian life, (assuming raised in it?) To being known as HumanistMama?

Long story cut VERY short :) Raised as a fundamentalist Christian; became very active in my church in junior high and early high school; looked at a bible college in MT my sophomore year; wanted to know as much as possible about the Bible; found some things didn’t add up; read “Evidence that Demands a Verdict”…found it to be very lacking; Stopped going to church my junior year; Started looking at other religions to see how they were different; Took classes on Buddhism, anthropology, psychology, science in college; Got married; had kids; Had to decide what to teach my kids; researched more religions; decided none of it made sense; my family started to become very religious and tried to impose their ideas on my kids; created my blog because I needed a way to vent.

See I don’t know you as anything else, but by all your links, posts etc, you are very strong in your stance.

Well, I don’t blame you for not seeing me as anything else, but like I said yesterday this is just a small part of me. I haven’t made a website that says everything about me…I wouldn’t have the time :) But, I did want a way to react to things that were going on and this was a way for me to do that.

I know many people that have their own beliefs, just like mine as a Christian but I don’t have blogs, or web pages proclaiming my beliefs, maybe as a Christian I should?

Everybody has their own reason for starting a blog or web page… I’m sure there are plenty of Christian blogs and websites out there. But many Christians probably don’t have the need because there are so many people who are Christians and know what many Christians believe. Many humanists/atheists don’t tell many people because of the hostile reaction they’ll get. We have many communities on the internet and it’s a way to stay connected with other people.


But as you stated many people are turned off by that, so I speak to them when opportunities arise or questions are asked.

It doesn’t bother me if people want to write out their thoughts or opinions on a blog. It kind of acts like a diary…where you can get comments :) I’m turned off by people getting in my face and telling me I’m wrong without asking me what I believe in the first place. I’m turned off by people treating me poorly because of my lack of belief. I’m turned off by people thinking and acting like they are better than me because of what they believe.

But publicly, those that know me would tell you I am a family man, Christian, sports freak, car collector, guitar dork, and dare I say it? Antique collector? I think my testosterone level just went down by three.

Well, nice to meet you family man, Christian, sports freak, car collector, guitar dork…antique collector :)

Anyway, I am not sure what more I can say on this whole topic. My ‘story’ is not made up, no lies, no exaggerations, I am willing to lay my hand on the Bible and swear truth, but I guess that would be the ultimate irony here huh? :)

You know what…I wouldn’t accuse you of making it up or exaggerating. That is your perspective of what happened. I want to say again that I am so happy for your family that your son is doing well. I hope that he never has a relapse.